As this is a decision concerning an administrator, I have been asked to request that only administrators weigh in on the following problem. Staff and moderators are free to read, but please leave the decision making up to a jury of peers.
Alright. I've let this sit and simmer long enough. I'm not going to split hairs and say that I like Raven, but… No. I fully and freely admit that we've come to blows on many, many things in the past, and while I've been content to let those go by, I feel that now I am being forced to act in some capacity and that further inaction would be the worst choice I could make. I will note that I've only included instances where I have interacted with Raven personally, as they're the ones that stood out in my mind and the ones I have records of.
Previously, Raven has shown a tendency to make quick, rash decision or threats based on emotion. This is somewhat understandable at times. I, myself, have gotten strongly emotional about things in the past. In fact, one of the logs that I'm going to be using in the discussion has me in a similar, emotion position, and I'm not proud of the way I handled it. That being said, I'm going to proceed to my evidence, attempt to highly relevant sections of it, and make my case clearly heard.
So, first things first. I'll get the one off my chest that both makes me look bad and first alerted me to a possible problem. Closer to the beginning of this year, I brought up our CreativeCommons problems to everyone, with a few suggestions, most of which… well… we ended up not doing anything about it because there's nothing we could do. A gentleman enters Site19, asking for permission to promote the site. Nusquam altered us in admin chat to the situation, and began a discussion of how we should handle these questions and requests.
[12:43] <Nusquam> So… total newbie heading up a PR campaign and merchandise production/distribution that we're trusting to donate the profits to the site.
[12:43] <Nusquam> That seems excessive.
[12:44] <Nusquam> It's entirely possible they mean well, and being dicks achieves nothing that simply explaining our position doesn't, and has the added bonus of not making us look like cunts.
[12:46] <Nusquam> I don't like the sound of it because none of us know jack about this person. He said he was either going to make a thread on the forums or PM someone.
[12:47] <Nusquam> Might've talked to Bright, I'm just trying to follow up so I know what the deal is.
[12:48] <MechaTroy> I've gotten no PM. I think he should be gently told that he could do whatever he likes, so long as he makes sure he properly attributes everything, but we're not going to endorse something.
[12:49] <TheRaven> You already know what I think about this kind of thing.
[12:50] <Ecks> nobody should make money off this
[12:51] <Ecks> it'll ruin everything
[12:51] <TheRaven> ^
[12:51] <Nusquam> I'd prefer if he was told we'd rather he didn't, because we don't know jack about him and are trusting a donation drive/PR campaign to a total unknown.
[12:51] <TheRaven> This is what bugs me about Creative Commons.
[12:53] <MechaTroy> Well, to be frank… We're too late to stop it.
[12:54] <Ecks> we can rape him
[12:54] <MechaTroy> The old site was creative commons. This site is creative commons. There's literally nothing we can do anymore.
[12:54] <MechaTroy> Ecks has the right idea, here.
[12:54] <MechaTroy> Sudden, violent penetrationpreferably rectallyshould end this issue.
[12:54] <MechaTroy> It might even… nip it in the bud.
[12:55] <TheRaven> That's basically the response I've been advocating since the beginning.
[12:55] <Ecks> it will end this problem
[12:56] <Ecks> we could put up a disclaimer on eth main page
[12:57] <Ecks> ppl that claim to make money for scp are only claiming it
[12:58] <MechaTroy> But seriously. If we really want to prevent this, we should put something up somewhere on the site and basically say: "Contact individual authors if you want to use their work in anything, please."
[12:58] <TheRaven> I doubt it'd help.
[12:59] <MechaTroy> Nothing helps. We're fucked. But it gives us a page to point to and say: "Please do this."
[13:00] <Ecks> if we can't stop it then the best we can do is damage control
[13:00] <MechaTroy> I mean, when it gets right down to it, this guys could say: "lol thanks" and throw a link to the site at the front of his book, then print them and sell them as much as he wanted.
[13:00] <TheRaven> Not the point. If someone is gonna ignore the staff and do this shit anyways, a disclaimer isn't going to help.
[13:00] <Ecks> can we ip ban ppl?
[13:00] <TheRaven> Fuck this license shit. Seriously.
[13:01] <TheRaven> Yeah. But getting a new IP is easy shit.
[13:02] <MechaTroy> Then we don't need to do anything, effectively. If someone logs in and asks, we just say: "Do whatever. It doesn't matter." Because otherwise, we're just lying.
[13:02] <MechaTroy> Ta-dah! Licenses.
[13:03] <MechaTroy> If we make a policy with a polite request, then maybejust fucking MAYBEthey'll stop and actually consider the authors first. Because we CAN'T DO SHIT to stop it. This is a simple fucking fact.
[13:03] <TheRaven> Do we have /any/ options with the new site?
[13:03] <MechaTroy> No.
[13:03] <MechaTroy> Read the O5 post where we talked about this at length.
[13:03] <Ecks> we can put up a message saying scp is non profit and if you see anybody selling scp related then call teh feds
[13:04] <Ecks> that migth scare ppl away from trying
[13:04] <MechaTroy> The best we can do is stop people from making a profit off of future additions.
[13:05] <MechaTroy> Everything we have now, everything, is creative commons.
[13:05] <Nusquam> If we put up any kind of message saying we don't officially endorse, that could very easily serve to simply give people ideas.
[13:05] <Ecks> maybe but at least it'll be out of our hands
[13:06] <MechaTroy> I think, if we do anything at all, we should request that they contact the original author. The original author still have some rights.
[13:06] <MechaTroy> *s
[13:06] <TheRaven> I personally support a policy of banning anyone who brings up this kind of idea.
[13:06] <MechaTroy> That's awesome. Lets just start banning.
[13:06] <MechaTroy> I'm done talking about this with you.
[13:07] <Ecks> what we need to do is
[13:07] <Ecks> use their ips to find their adress
[13:07] <Ecks> then remind them that we know where they live
[13:08] <Ecks> and that some of us have dicks
[13:08] <MechaTroy> Ecks: A fair majority of us have dicks.
[13:09] <Ecks> then we can tell them that our dicks are spread around the world
[13:09] <Ecks> they can't hid from our dicks
[13:09] <Bright_> we have over 9000 dicks…
03[13:09] * Bright_ is now known as Bright
03[13:09] * ChanServ sets mode: +qo Bright Bright
[13:10] <Ecks> sometimes i think it would be cool to see an anime or movie or some shit based off all this
[13:11] <Ecks> but then i remember money will be invlved
[13:11] <Ecks> money ruins everything
[13:11] <TheRaven> See, this is my exact problem. Whenever this comes up, people are dicks about it.
[13:12] <Ecks> if we could work out a legal way for money to not ruin everything i would be oik with it
[13:12] <Maddy> Says the guy saying we should just ban anyone who brings it up without knowing their intentions.
[13:12] <MechaTroy> TheRaven I personally support a policy of banning anyone who brings up this kind of idea.
[13:12] <MechaTroy> See that? ^ Dick move.
[13:12] <Ecks> maybe it's teh law that ruins everything
[13:12] <TheRaven> You have no room to talk about being a dick, Troy.
[13:13] <MechaTroy> Yeah, Raven, but at least I'm a useful dick.
[13:13] <Maddy> Since when does someone's personal dickishness take away their ability to know who's a dick and who's not?
[13:13] <Quikngruvn> All right, guys, deep breath.
[13:13] <Ecks> everything always comes back to dicks
03[13:13] * TheRaven (~PI.FD5AEBE3.B410CDC5.1A9F3F86|ffonivaR#PI.FD5AEBE3.B410CDC5.1A9F3F86|ffonivaR) has left XXXXXXXX
This boiled down to sort of an angry yelling match between myself and Raven, with Raven eventually quitting the chat (and rejoining about five minutes later, though that's not included). The attitude that concerned me at the time were the following sentiments:
[13:00] <TheRaven> Fuck this license shit. Seriously.
[13:06] <TheRaven> I personally support a policy of banning anyone who brings up this kind of idea.
Both of these were indicative of the quick, knee-jerk reaction Raven has toward any situation. This sentiment has yet to change, and every time Creative Commons has been brought up since (and before), it has evoked a similar reaction. While I freely admit that I didn't handle myself well here (and I'm not going to argue my frustration was justified, because that's a cop out), I do feel that we cannot ignore this kind of attitude toward something as integral and important to the running of the site as C.C. is. As I previously stated, this was my first indication of an issue. I continued observing, though I kept myself in check since this time.
This is a somewhat similar situation, where I was considering implementing something a site user had discovered: simple code that would make it possible to link up something like the tags with a series of warning labels. Authors seeking to use them could toss the code at the bottom and have it automatically synch to a bank of images, making it possible for something like the old "security labels" to be easily added on, en masse if so desired.
[13:27] <TheRaven> What exactly is the plan with the labels? Because I think I'll have to flip some tables if they end up like the old ones.
[13:28] <MechaTroy> It's optional and easy to implement. I'm playing with them now with a few people.
[13:28] <TheRaven> I'm thinking they'd be absolutely awful from a tone perspective.
[13:29] <MechaTroy> My idea is to only have… maybe ten, max. Things like mind effecting or memetic. Euclid or Keter. Humanoid.
[13:29] <MechaTroy> Eh. Like I said. They're optional.
[13:29] <TheRaven> Optional, but still going to be there if the author likes them.
[13:30] <~Bright> …labels?
[13:30] <MechaTroy> That's the idea.
[13:30] <MechaTroy> Yeah, Bright.
[13:30] <TheRaven> I'm voting for admin veto on this, because there's no way it won't be horrible.
[13:34] <~Bright> …what the hell are we talking about?
[13:35] <MechaTroy> I've figured out a script (with help) that people could toss on their page to add a "warning label" to it automatically based off of the tags. No additional work involved for the user.
[13:35] <~Bright> aha
[13:37] <TheRaven> I'm against it because I think it's completely out of tone for the site, and will look awful.
[13:38] <MechaTroy> The old ones (http://www.scp-wiki.net/warning-labels <—- That shit right there) were awful, but Gears found these (http://scp-wiki.wdfiles.com/local--files/dr-gears-s-personnel-file/listing.png ) and it got me thinking about it again.
[13:38] <TheRaven> Nnnnnnno.
[13:39] <TheRaven> Those are fucking awful.
[13:39] <TheRaven> Aesthetically they're horrible, and they're retarded from a tone perspective.
[13:40] <MechaTroy> And… they would be entirely optional. I'm not talking about mandating it. I'm talking about making it something for users to implement as they wish.
[13:42] <TheRaven> There's no reason you'd use those in a containment document.
[13:42] <TheRaven> On the door to a cell on site, fine.
[13:43] <MechaTroy> Again. I'm not talking about mandating it or even putting a process in place for it to be recommended. I think it's something neat and flavorful that authors should have the chance to work with, if they so choose.
[13:44] <TheRaven> Neat from an out-of-universe perspective. Dumb from an internal one.
[13:45] <TheRaven> You don't see the NSA tagging intel reports with symbols.
[13:47] <MechaTroy> Either way, I think it should be the author's choice, in any regard.
[13:47] <@Clef> http://www.securityshop.com.au/higprot.jpg
[13:47] <TheRaven> Well, if it's the author's choice to use it, it's my choice to downvote because it's fucking stupid.
[13:48] <MechaTroy> And you're more than welcome to do so. :) That's sort of the point of the site and all that, after all.
[13:48] <@Clef> Really, Raven, you would downvote?
[13:48] <TheRaven> I would.
[13:49] <@Clef> You wouldn't, like, not vote and ask the writer to remove the one offending part?
[13:49] <TheRaven> Just like I'd downvote anything else with awful tone.
[13:50] <@Clef> So having a classification label is awful tone?
[13:50] <TheRaven> Yep. Because it doesn't fit at all with the established tone of the site.
[13:51] <@Clef> Would you mind elaborating on that? I'm curious as to your logic.
[13:54] <TheRaven> An SCP is written basically as a condensed report on what the item is. A description, class and what to do with it, occasionally with some extended components to demonstrate how it works. You wouldn't have warning labels in something like that. Now, if you're talking about what you'd see in a Foundation facility, they'd be perfect.
03[13:56] * Pig_catapult (~moc.retrahc.ac.olns.pchd.006CF69D-CRInys|alliztahc#moc.retrahc.ac.olns.pchd.006CF69D-CRInys|alliztahc) has joined #xxxxx
03[13:56] * ChanServ sets mode: +o Pig_catapult
[13:57] <Maddy> I can see them being on reports he same way he WHIMIS symbols are usually still on the chemical remorts of a substance
[13:59] <@Clef> http://www.sfchem.com.tw/eng/product/msds_eng/Dicyclohexylamine.pdf
06[13:59] * @Clef shrugs.
[13:59] <TheRaven> It'd be the same as putting a radiation hazard symbol on a report about Three Mile Island.
[14:00] <@Clef> Raven: these are handling and storage procedure instructions
[14:00] <@Clef> at the very least, icons would be there to indicate the proper way to label them.
[14:00] <@Clef> "Be sure to put this, this, and this on the container."
[14:01] <Maddy> There probably /is/ a radiation hazard symbol or a report about TMI
[14:01] <TheRaven> Eh. I don't exactly think you'd need to tell people what to label the memetic evil as if they're working for the Foundation.
[14:01] <@Clef> Now you're changing the argument.
[14:02] <TheRaven> How so?
[14:02] <TheRaven> Clef at the very least, icons would be there to indicate the proper way to label them. Clef "Be sure to put this, this, and this on the container."
[14:03] <@Clef> Your original argument is that you won't see warning labels on a containment and handling procedures instruction sheet, which is what an SCP report is. You are now arguing that people in an SCP facility should know this already. The thing is, a handling sheet is there to make sure that everyone knows.
[14:03] <@Clef> When you're working with something hazardous, you never assume.
[14:03] <@Clef> Now, we take liberties with such because it reads better, and we're writing fiction, we're not actually writing up hazmat sheets.
[14:04] <TheRaven> See, that's the thing. I think these would work better for something like the GOC.
[14:04] <@Clef> If your argument is that you don't like seeing the warning labels on the sheets because you think they break the flow of the article and make it harder to read, you'll have an argument.
[14:06] <@Clef> Internally, it's honestly much dumber that the articles don't have labels, stricter classifications, and long tables indicating a series of hazards and responses, down to, say, whether or not you should let it touch water and stuff.
[14:07] <@Clef> But we don't want to make people do all that when writing creepypasta, so… them's the breaks.
[14:07] <@Clef> Anyway, gonna grab some food. Cya guys.
03[14:07] * Clef is now known as Clef_Foodens
[14:07] <MechaTroy> Later, Clef.
[14:07] <TheRaven> Okay, here's what I'm saying. Take 106 as an example. You've got the number, the class, a picture for rapid identification, a description, and a containment protocol. That's the format we use. A quick, condensed, easy-to-reference guide on something very bad. Now, to me, it'd make more sense if that wasn't the only file we've got on the thing.
[14:09] <TheRaven> What you're seeing on the page is a quick overview of the item. What you don't see is the binder-sized full document about it.
[14:10] <Maddy> The same goes for leveling and recording and documenting safe handling or hazardous shit irl. The shortened reports, like ours, also have the WHIMIS symbols on them. I don't see why the Foundation would skip a step people who make bleach even take
[14:12] <TheRaven> But see, I'm not equating a standard SCP page to a WHIMIS page.
[14:12] <Maddy> What are you euating it to then?
[14:15] <TheRaven> Basically, something to pull out when shit gets bad. No extraneous data, just the bare minimum needed to keep it locked pu.
[14:16] <MechaTroy> If it's only being pulled out when shit gets bad, then it seems that the warning would be all the more important, doesn't it?
[14:16] <Maddy> what I'm saying is that the emergency sheet you pull our for when, say someons gets bleach in their eyes, has that symbol on it, and saying a symbol in this case ruins the tone is kinda silly IMHO
[14:16] <MechaTroy> Quick glance; there's the problem…
[14:16] <Heiden> That really doesn't make sense to me, considering the amount of interviews and experiment logs that get included on SCPs.
[14:16] <Heiden> In 'pull in case of emergency' documents, why the -fuck- would you include an interview?
[14:16] <Maddy> ^ that too
[14:17] <Maddy> so it's silly at two angles[14:17] <~Bright> I like the diea Troy, start using it on some of your stuff, let's see how it looks.
[14:17] <MechaTroy> Can do, Bright. I'll get some stuff mocked up, we'll see how users respond, and we can more forward from there. I'm going to ask the user base to help in designing them.
[14:19] <TheRaven> Well, I'm still against it, and will be downvoting anything new that uses them.
[14:19] <~Bright> That's yer perogative Raven, but why not see how they look before downvoting?
[14:20] <TheRaven> Troy said he intends to use these, unless I misunderstood. http://scp-wiki.wdfiles.com/local--files/dr-gears-s-personnel-file/listing.png
[14:20] <TheRaven> And those are /horrible./
[14:21] <MechaTroy> I don't, Raven. Those are the ones Gears posted that got me thinking about it again.
[14:21] <~Bright> Again, see how it looks first. That's why I encourage people to write up their ideas, instead of just throwing them out there. You never know how good something is going to be until you try.
[14:21] <MechaTroy> "but Gears found these ( ) and it got me thinking about it again."
[14:21] <MechaTroy> "I'm going to ask the user base to help in designing them."
[14:21] <~Bright> Personally, i'm not sure this will work either. But i'd like to see what troy has to offer
[14:22] <MechaTroy> Heyo, Bossman. I'll put it a little further up my list.
[14:22] <~Bright> But still behind unfinished business three
[14:22] <MechaTroy> THAT SUCKER IS AT THE BOTTOM.
[14:23] <TheRaven> There's so much shit we need to get done before doing this.
[14:23] <MechaTroy> Everytime I've started working on it, something terrible happens in my life.
[14:24] <Heiden> Raven, what needs to get done before Troy works on this?
[14:24] <TheRaven> Heiden: oh, let's see…there's the *planned site move*.
[14:25] <Heiden> And?
[14:25] <TheRaven> Which has, exactly as I said it would be, been seemingly abandoned.
[14:25] <MechaTroy> Well, I've got the Foundation Tales page redesign and the tagging project. I've got to finish the rewrite of the "How To Write an SCP Guide." I don't really have Moose right now, since he's finishing the Deletions Project… We did get the CreepyPasta archive done though.
[14:25] <MechaTroy> Nah. Quik and Kens are working on it still. That's Quik's Baby.
[14:25] <Heiden> Why don't you pick it up, Raven?
[14:25] <Heiden> I haven't seen a huge initiative to do anything about until -just now-, when Troy suggested doing something new.
03[14:26] * Dr_Kens (PI.4B77E01B.3F44C825.D20F2DFE|tibbiM#PI.4B77E01B.3F44C825.D20F2DFE|tibbiM) has joined #xxxxx
[14:26] <~Bright> Deletions Project?
[14:26] <MechaTroy> The list of all deleted pages on the site. I've got him finishing it.
[14:26] <~Bright> Speak of the devil, and he appears
[14:26] <TheRaven> Exactly what I said was going to happen, Heiden. Two people is not nearly enough for something on this scale.
[14:26] <~Bright> Raven: it's not a hyuge priority.
[14:26] <Dr_Kens> What?
[14:26] <MechaTroy> Well, right now, they're still finishing the framework. And I think it's on the backburner anyhow.
[14:26] <MechaTroy> The new site, Kens.
[14:26] <~Bright> [15:25] <MechaTroy> Nah. Quik and Kens are working on it still. That's Quik's Baby.
[14:26] <~Bright> [15:25] <Heiden> Why don't you pick it up, Raven?
[14:26] <~Bright> [15:25] <Heiden> I haven't seen a huge initiative to do anything about until -just now-, when Troy suggested doing something new.
[14:26] <~Bright> [15:25] * Dr_Kens (PI.4B77E01B.3F44C825.D20F2DFE|tibbiM#PI.4B77E01B.3F44C825.D20F2DFE|tibbiM) has joined #xxxxx
[14:26] <MechaTroy> Don't worry. We're not rushinig you.
[14:26] <TheRaven> Yes, but it should take precedence over a bunch of ugly labels.
[14:27] <~Bright> Raven
[14:27] <Heiden> Wow, that's a pretty shitty way to be, Raven.
[14:27] <Dr_Kens> Oh, yeah, sorry mates.
[14:27] <~Bright> Take two steps and get over it. Seriously.
[14:27] <~Bright> This is somethign people do for fun.
[14:27] <Heiden> Troy hasn't even developed them yet and you're already like 'THESE ARE SHITTY'
[14:27] <Dr_Kens> I've got an exam tonight and next week that are kinda sorta critical.
[14:27] <~Bright> I'm not going to force people to work on stuff if they aren't in the mood.
[14:27] <MechaTroy> Kens: Don't worry about it, man. You're totally cool.
[14:27] <~Bright> EXCEPT FOR MAKING TRY FINISH UNFINISHED BUSINESS!
[14:28] <MechaTroy> But Bright… I would have to rename the whole series… ;_;
[14:29] <~Bright> …fucker
[14:29] <TheRaven> See, that's the thing. This was set up as a huge project, and through nobody's fault, it's going nowhere because it's not being managed reliably.
[14:29] <MechaTroy> Hahaha. I'll have spring break in a few weeks. If i'm not getting laid, I'll work on it, eh? ;)
03[14:29] * TheRaven was kicked by Bright (Come back when you have a more positive outlook.)
03[14:29] * TheRaven (~PI.FD5AEBE3.725526E.40E770CF|ffonivaR#PI.FD5AEBE3.725526E.40E770CF|ffonivaR) has joined #xxxxx
[14:29] <~Bright> That was quick.
[14:29] <~Bright> Anyways, off to work bros.
[14:29] <Dr_Kens> Actually, let me let TheRaven know what's going on at the moment.
[14:30] <~Bright> Don't let them hos get before us.
[14:30] <MechaTroy> Raven: It is being managed. Quik and Kens are working on it. They're been working on it for months.
[14:30] <Dr_Kens> He has a right to at least understand.
[14:30] <Dr_Kens> The thing is, it's not because it's badly managed.
[14:30] <Dr_Kens> We know /exactly/ what we need to do.
[14:30] <Dr_Kens> We're doing it.
[14:30] <TheRaven> Troy: well guess what, they're the only ones doing it, and I don't think that's acceptable.
[14:30] <Dr_Kens> But schedules have been fucking up our time table.
[14:30] <TheRaven> Fair enough.
[14:30] <Dr_Kens> What we have to do isn't something that anyone can do.
[14:30] <Dr_Kens> No offense.
[14:30] <TheRaven> But if there were more than two people doing this major project, then that might not be such an issue.
[14:31] <Heiden> Raven
[14:31] <Heiden> Why aren't you doing it, then?
[14:31] <Dr_Kens> It's just that a lot of the server-side stuff is more specialized.
[14:31] <Dr_Kens> If you know of ANYONE ELSE who knows how to do CSS, MySQL databases, Python, and all of the related material, please, feel free to let me know.
[14:31] <TheRaven> Heiden: because I've never been given the option to.
[14:31] <Heiden> Have you volunteered? Have you pursued it at all?
[14:31] <Heiden> Troy saw a project he was interested in and took some initiative
[14:32] <MechaTroy> I… think I'm gonna call BS on that, since the call was given to people to volunteer months ago.
[14:32] <Heiden> and you're shitting -all over it- because it's not the one you want him working on
[14:32] <Dr_Kens> I did.
[14:32] <Dr_Kens> Let me post the link.
[14:32] <TheRaven> Well, consider this me volunteering.
[14:32] <Heiden> Wonders never cease.
03[14:32] * TheRaven (~PI.FD5AEBE3.725526E.40E770CF|ffonivaR#PI.FD5AEBE3.725526E.40E770CF|ffonivaR) has left #xxxxx
This one actually is a longer log, because of the extended conversation about this, which bounced between Raven and myself, followed by Clef and Raven, and finally Heiden and Raven. It originated in the labels and eventually shifted over the possibility of the new site and its progress. Again, the concerning attitude is outlined in the following section:
[13:30] <TheRaven> I'm voting for admin veto on this, because there's no way it won't be horrible. (RE: Labels)
Now, this is at the beginning of the conversation. Of all the logs, I most strongly recommend rereading this one in its entirely, because the attitude put forth is highly indicative of the attitude regularly assumed by Raven during discussion of site topics. Highly dismissive, strongly critical, and mostly negative. To be honest, other than occasionally voting on and deleting SCPs (more on this in a moment), I've never seen Raven do anything for the site other than bash the ideas of others or berate them for not doing it at a pace that he has seen fit.
On a side note, unless something has changed recently, other than the final line Raven posted before (again) quitting chat, he has yet to discuss anything with Quik or Kens concerning the new site or the new site design or helping them. If I'm wrong, Quik, please point it out to me.
Moving on, a while back, one of our users—Gargus—wrote what was effectively gore/porn as his representation of Operation 110-Montauk. He then posted it in chat, asking people what they thought. The discussion in admin chat, RE:This topic, is in the following log.
[23:01] <TheRaven> Could somebody properly berate Gargus for that thing he wrote?
[23:04] <~Bright> what thing?
[23:05] <TheRaven> http://scpsandboxwiki.wikidot.com/gargus
[23:05] <TheRaven> Warning: fucked up, being deleted soon on my advice.
[23:05] <~Bright> Mhmm.
[23:05] <~Bright> his sandbox, he can put whatever he wants on it
[23:06] <TheRaven> I basically said that if he put that on the wiki, I'd have him banned in under a minute.
[23:06] <~Bright> I don't see why.
[23:06] <~Bright> I wouldn't ban him for it.
[23:07] <~Bright> Delete it, probably.
[23:07] <TheRaven> There's a fuckin' line, man.
[23:07] <~Bright> But you can't ban someone for poor ideas.
[23:07] <~Bright> Troy wrote a graphic description of clef taking a shit.
00[23:07] <TroyL> You threatened to ban someone… for something they had not done yet?
[23:07] <@Clef> …
[23:08] <@Clef> wait
00[23:08] <TroyL> What. The. Fuck.
[23:08] <@Clef> we're banning people over content now?
00[23:08] <TroyL> That is the most absurd and retarded thing I have ever fucking heard.
00[23:08] <TroyL> We delete poor content.
00[23:08] <TroyL> We use it as an example.
00[23:08] <TroyL> This is… I just…
[23:08] <TheRaven> Troy: I pretty well said that if that were to hit the wiki, I'd fucking drop the hammer on the guy. There's a goddamn line, and that not only crosses it, but takes a giant flaming shit on it.
[23:08] <~Bright> But it doesn't Raven.
[23:09] <~Bright> What about it do you think crosses the line?
[23:09] <~Bright> And, no, we're not Clef.
00[23:09] <TroyL> Raven: You're making a unilateral decision. And that doesn't cross any lines, as far as I'm concerned. The users decide what crosses a line.
00[23:09] <TroyL> They vote. We delete.
00[23:09] <TroyL> In the case of blatant trollery or non-standard content (or non horror, occasionally) we vote.
[23:10] <~Bright> Everyones line is different
While the story Gargus wrote (still available in pastebin if your curiosity is really that deep) was, in fact, terrible and disturbing, the attitude taken toward it and the author caused me concern, namely:
[23:06] <TheRaven> I basically said that if he put that on the wiki, I'd have him banned in under a minute.
As a creative writing site, I feel that we shouldn't threaten to ban someone for their writing before it's actually posted. Additionally, I don't think we should threaten to ban someone for their writing. We have different reasons to ban, and bad writing isn't one of them. I don't think this situation was handled well at all by Raven, and intimidating a user into not posting something, no matter what it is, shouldn't be done by an administrator.
These three things were the major complaints I had with Raven up until this previous weekend. Things that annoyed me, but things that I felt should be addressed by someone other than myself (mainly because of the aforementioned rift between Raven and myself over other issues). What happened recently that has driven me to act is the following.
Last week, Raven saw fit to delete an SCP which was plagiarizing a line from another SCP. The plagiarizing writer had directly copied a line from another SCP. The log follows:
[22:52] <Feierbird> !scp-1252 appears to have some of its containment procedures lifted directly from !scp-087
[22:52] <CROM> Feierbird: http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-1252 - [ACCESS DENIED]
[22:52] <CROM> Feierbird: http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-087 - The Stairwell
[22:52] <Feierbird> How should this be dealt with?
[22:53] <Ecks> rape
[22:53] <Wilkes> Beating to death
[22:53] <Feierbird> I mean, deletion for plagiarism, sternly worded ultimatum to change the containment procedures up, what?
[22:54] <Wilkes> It plagiarism, so, message the poster via their wikidot ID, and post something in the comments
[22:54] <TheRaven> I vote delete.
[22:55] <Wilkes> If no remedial action is taken within your specified timeframe, file it in the round cabinet
[22:55] <TheRaven> In related news, I've decided it's not worth pursuing the 1116 thing. Delta is apologetic, and I don't give enough fucks.
[22:56] <Feierbird> That's that then.
[22:56] <Wilkes> Is there a codified response to plagiarism?
[22:56] <TheRaven> I was fairly sure the policy was deletion.
[22:56] <Rhett> i dont think it's mentioned other than "dont do it"
[22:56] <Rhett> *checks*
[22:56] <Feierbird> Well, you're an admin. If you think it deserves deletion, delete it.
[22:56] <Rhett> All that said, please understand that this system is utilized by site staff as a courtesy, and the voting process can and will be waived in cases of plagiarism or trolling. Such things are not tolerated on the wiki and are dealt with harshly. If four members of senior staff (including one moderator or administrator) agree that a page has been created for the
[22:56] <TheRaven> No, that'll be a shitstorm.
[22:57] <Rhett> Both trolling and plagiarism are bannable offenses, and staff request that any instances of such behavior be reported, with proof, to a mod or admin.
[22:57] <TheRaven> Oh
[22:57] <TheRaven> Well then.
06[22:57] * TheRaven cracks knuckles.
00[22:57] <@TroyL> Wait. What are we doing?
[22:57] <Feierbird> I'd say delete the page, send a warning to the user. I'm feeling like giving the benefit of the doubt.
[22:57] <Rhett> apparently we get to ban somebody for plagiarism?
[22:57] <Rhett> haha
[22:57] <TheRaven> I'm doing what Scan said.
[22:58] <Feierbird> TroyL: 22:52 Feierbird !scp-1252 appears to have some of its containment procedures lifted directly from !scp-087
[22:58] <CROM> Feierbird: http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-1252 - [ACCESS DENIED]
[22:58] <CROM> Feierbird: http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-087 - The Stairwell
[22:58] <Wilkes> 1252 contains plagiarised pieces of 087, specifically containment
00[22:58] <@TroyL> I'd post in the discussion that it isn't cool, with a quick quote of the policy, and tell them to change it.
[22:59] <TheRaven> "SCP-1252 has been deleted based on plagiarism from SCP-087. Bear in mind that's a bannable offense, so don't do it again."
00[22:59] <@TroyL> Banning immediately for something like that seems over the top. Let them have a chance to change it.
[22:59] <TheRaven> It's deleted, that's the PM I'm sending.
[22:59] <Rhett> no fun *pouts*
[22:59] <TheRaven> Sound good to you guys?
[23:00] <Feierbird> Works for me.
[23:00] <Rhett> *sigh* yeees. not that i have a "say" :P
[23:00] <TheRaven> Hey, you're cool enough to get invited here. I'll probably pay attention to your opinion.
[23:02] <TheRaven> I seem to remember you being pretty cool in AD too, but that might be my mind fucking with me
[23:02] <Rhett> oh. yes. i was. i was the COOLEST <_<
11[23:02] * @Dexanote (~ten.elbacogc.emoh.CBFED478-CRInys|alliztahc#ten.elbacogc.emoh.CBFED478-CRInys|alliztahc) Quit (Broken pipe)
[23:02] <Rhett> erm. which were you?
[23:02] <Feierbird> raven am i cool in FR
06[23:02] * Feierbird flobs onto TheRaven
[23:02] <TheRaven> You weren't around much, but I recall you having a character at one point
[23:03] <Rhett> i was around often enough for when i was around
[23:03] <Rhett> it was just a fairly short period due to school
[23:03] <TheRaven> Weber was my char.
[23:03] <Rhett> it's true though, i really ought to get to know some of the senior staff a bit better than i do. i've been around forever, i have no excuse.
[23:03] <TheRaven> Who the hell was yours again?
[23:03] <Rhett> ah yes, weber
[23:04] <Rhett> antoni heladris
[23:04] <Rhett> dr heladris
[23:04] <TheRaven> Right!
[23:04] <Rhett> what i felt was my most noteworthy thing i did also ended up being one of the last things i did before i had to drop it :P
[23:05] <Feierbird> Rhett: Hi, I'm Scantron/Feierbird. I'm a squirrely 17-year-old neckbeard who has dark secrets.
[23:05] <Rhett> did a roleplayed version of doing research into an SCP with dice rolling to determine what i did or did not learn on it. heiden geeked out over someone doing that much detail
[23:05] <Rhett> scantron, i know you just fine :P
[23:05] <Feierbird> o rly
[23:05] <Rhett> you dont count
[23:05] <Rhett> unless you feel you dont know me
[23:05] <Rhett> in which case never mind
[23:05] <Rhett> and we will have to snuggle a while
[23:05] <Feierbird> i don't really know you that well
[23:05] <Feierbird> no hugs
[23:05] <Rhett> aight
[23:05] <Feierbird> BUT
[23:05] <TheRaven> Really?
[23:06] <Feierbird> i would like to test out a riddle on you
[23:06] <TheRaven> That's standard procedure in FR>
[23:06] <Rhett> did heiden have anything to do with FR?
[23:06] <Feierbird> Thirty days hath March, April, June, September, and November. What color is my underwear?
[23:06] <Rhett> he might have suggested the idea from that
00[23:06] <@TroyL> Scantron: White:
[23:06] <Feierbird> no, wrong
[23:07] <Rhett> hm
[23:08] <Rhett> how seriously should i be taking this riddle? because on the surface it seems interesting, but if it's nonsense it's not worthwhile :P
[23:09] <Feierbird> I /think/ it should be solvable, but it is rather lateral thinking. Read it carefully.
03[23:09] * Dexanote (~ten.elbacogc.emoh.CBFED478-CRInys|alliztahc#ten.elbacogc.emoh.CBFED478-CRInys|alliztahc) has joined ######
[23:09] <Rhett> i love lateral thinking and that's what it felt like
[23:09] <Rhett> but it was possible to just be nonsense silliness too
[23:10] <Rhett> so i didnt want to put thought to it if it wasnt a real riddle
[23:10] <Feierbird> It's a real riddle.
[23:10] <Rhett> good
00[23:11] <@TroyL> Well, March has 31 days.
[23:11] <Rhett> that's what drew me in
00[23:11] <@TroyL> So… Brown.
[23:13] <Feierbird> You're right on keying onto March, but it's not brown.
00[23:13] <@TroyL> Raven: You need to make a post in the deletions thread and on O5. Make sure you include the incriminating stuff.
[23:13] <Feierbird> Hint: what color is typically associated with march?
[23:13] <Rhett> my initial thought is green
[23:13] <Rhett> and yes
[23:13] <Feierbird> boom
[23:13] <Feierbird> you got it
[23:13] <Rhett> yaay
[23:13] <Rhett> and i was typing that before you said the hint :P
[23:13] <Rhett> so meh
[23:13] <Rhett> meh to hints
[23:14] <TheRaven> Troy: dicks, really? It's already gone, want me to just say it was copying shit from 087?
[23:14] <Feierbird> Okay awesome, I just wanted to make sure it was solvable. I'm thinking of using it somewhere.
[23:14] <Rhett> the question is though…..why underwear?
[23:14] <Rhett> that's the real connection i was trying to figure
[23:14] <Rhett> the color itself, ok, green seemed most likely
[23:14] <Rhett> but WHY
[23:14] <Feierbird> vOv
00[23:14] <@TroyL> Uhh…. You kinda need to be able to show what it was copying, man.
00[23:14] <@TroyL> Does he have a sandbox?
[23:14] <Feierbird> the bit about the electric lock
[23:15] <Rhett> yeah that was the thing i wondered on that
[23:15] <Rhett> if you copied the plagiarism first
[23:15] <Rhett> but you said you already deleted it before i thought to ask that
[23:15] <Feierbird> I'll ask around in 19 for a screenshot.
[23:16] <Rhett> i would have it if it werent for wikidot being so nice about updating pages for you without you having to refresh them
[23:17] <Feierbird> never seen that happen
[23:17] <Rhett> well, not like
[23:17] <Rhett> if you sit on the page
[23:17] <Rhett> but if you move to another page and then go back
[23:17] <Rhett> it'll update it
[23:17] <Feierbird> Ah.
[23:18] <Feierbird> http://www.scp-wiki.net/forum/t-464335/scp-1252
[23:18] <Feierbird> He acknowledged it in the thread.
[23:18] <Feierbird> So, screenshot that before that link expires or whatever, I guess..
00[23:18] <@TroyL> So… He was asking how to attribute when his page was deleted for plagarism?
[23:19] <TheRaven> He's planning to repost it with the copied bit removed anyways.
11[23:24] * ScanAFK (~ten.tsacmoc.nm.1dsh.6EEFF072-CRInys|naD#ten.tsacmoc.nm.1dsh.6EEFF072-CRInys|naD) Quit (Connection reset by peer)
[23:24] <TheRaven> And if I'm not mistaken, you just can't do that anyways, attributed or not.
00[23:26] <@TroyL> Maybe, but if he's new and derping (and I think he was trying to make a logical point in the discussion), then maybe he was genuinely retarded instead of being malicious.
[23:26] <Rhett> it is KINDA sad that you cant have any standardized equipment for certain types of entities, as that would be efficient
[23:26] <TheRaven> There's standard stuff and there's direct copypasting.
[23:26] <Rhett> yeah
[23:27] <TheRaven> And he's not butthurt about it or anything, we've been PMing back and forth since it was deleted.
[23:27] <Feierbird> If he's cool with it, I'm cool with it. Just remember for next time.
[23:28] <TheRaven> Not like it's a common issue.
In this, Raven took action to immediately delete the page in question. At the same time that Raven was deciding to delete the page, the author was in the discussion thread of the SCP asking how to properly attribute it to the original author and fully admitting that he was copied it directly, even providing a rationale. Log of said discussion thread: Log here
This was, again, Raven making a hasty decision, this time unilaterally choosing to delete a page. To quote Mann:
<DrMann> We don't let Bright get away with that shit. (RE: The other cliche's page, which he was chastised heavily for deleting)
With very few exceptions, choosing to delete a page is always discussed with others. When it is not, there is always hell to pay. That being said, the major things—outside of the deletion itself—that concerned me are as follows:
[23:13] <@TroyL> Raven: You need to make a post in the deletions thread and on O5. Make sure you include the incriminating stuff.
[23:14] <TheRaven> Troy: dicks, really? It's already gone, want me to just say it was copying shit from 087?
Firstly, the page was deleted with no copy of it made for proof of the offense. Secondly, there was no effort or intention until he was reminded again the next day to make report of the incident. As it stands, the only discussion made was a two or three line exchange between a Senior Staffer and someone who is currently up for a staff position. The only report was a day later, on this site. And in spite of:
[23:27] <TheRaven> And he's not butthurt about it or anything, we've been PMing back and forth since it was deleted.
The user has still not reposted their article, to my knowledge. This was, again, a knee-jerk reaction to a single line from an SCP. If someone were to spend a short amount of time, they would quickly notice just how many SCPs borrow from others and exactly how common this is. This was an issue that should have been dealt with through the velvet glove, not the iron fist.
And, even though this was freshly on the plate, I was still not inclined to make this post and ask for his removal. Instead, it took another act of deletion, the next day, to finally drive me to act.
The old sandboxes on the site have, for a long time now, been considered an eyesore. We're ready for them to be gone, and we're all tired of them lingering around. In spite of that, we have left them there, because—as has been discussed numerous times—we don't want to delete an author's work without backups of it/without the author's knowledge.
The first time an effort was made to remove sandbox pages from the main wiki, Mann and Yoric were involved, and they went through the painstaking effort of contacting each author, moving their page to the sandbox wiki, and sending them information on how to find their work. The following was the discussion that took place that morning:
<TheRaven> Oi, guys, http://www.scp-wiki.net/palhinuk-s-box-of-sand
<TheRaven> Any reason this is still on the wiki?
<TheRaven> Actually, shit, there's a bunch.
- Scanshits is now known as Scantron
<Scantron> I think they're just left on 'cause they're old
<@Light> Oh, man, I meant to delete all of those a long time ago, but think I stopped for some reason
<TheRaven> I was doing the same, Light
<TheRaven> Did someone tell us to stop?
<@Light> I don't think so
<@Light> Oh, I remember
<@Light> A picture got deleted because it was attached to the article, and then I think I forgot about it after I fixed that
<@Light> So, continue, just check to see if pictures correspond to any actual articles
<TheRaven> Ah!
- @Light will help with this, now that she remembers :p
- TheRaven starts.
<TheRaven> Leave Bright's alone, or delete?
<@Light> Uhhh
<Scantron> .ch leeeeeve baleeeeeet
<CROM> Scantron: leeeeeve
<@Light> Let's say keep it for now
<TheRaven> Yeah
<@Light> .tell Bright Heyo, what do you want to do with your sandbox on the site, we're deleting the others
<CROM> Light: I'll pass that along.
<@Light> Okay, that didn't make any sense, but now he'll know
<TheRaven> This would be much easier if Mack hadn't tagged them all last month.
<TheRaven> Or well
<TheRaven> Easier in one way, more difficult in another.
<TheRaven> Feel like I should leave Kain's alone.
- Scantron is now known as ScanAFK
<@Light> Yeah, go with your judgement I guess
<TheRaven> .tell Clef You wanna move stuff off your sandbox on the wiki before we delete it?
<CROM> TheRaven: I'll pass that along.
<@Light> I do think we migrated a whole bunch of these to the sandbox wiki when that started, but who knows we could have left something out
<TheRaven> Okay, this one's vaguely amusing. http://www.scp-wiki.net/dr-frohman-s-sandbox
<@TroyL> Make sure none of the sandboxes have files attached to them.
<@TroyL> Before you delete them, I mean.
<@TroyL> I would leave any belonging to admins.
<@TroyL> Or exceptionally old members.
<@TroyL> Mainly because the history on it probably has some pretty good thoughts or abandoned ones.
<@TroyL> And Snorlison just used his recently.
<TheRaven> I'm leaving anything from people who are still active.
<TheRaven> Hmm
<TheRaven> Would anyone consider Sei active enough to leave his alone? Yoric told him to move it.
<TheRaven> Okay no, his last wiki activity was commenting on that…thing I wrote for a contest.
<TheRaven> There is the start to a tale on it, though
<TheRaven> Fuck it, it stays.
<TheRaven> GUYS
<TheRaven> GUYS LOOK
<TheRaven> I FOUND A MARYSUE HUMANOID
<TheRaven> http://www.scp-wiki.net/hawkins-s-sandbox
<TheRaven> Troy, make this into a -J or something.
<@Light> "The Stray" isn't a user anyone remembers, is he/she?
<TheRaven> Doesn't sound familiar.
<@Light> Okay, and his SCP sucks, so bye bye sandbox
<TheRaven> I'm gonna leave most of them alone since I know a bunch of the authors are still around.
- ScanAFK is now known as Scantron
<@Light> Actually, I don't htink all of them were uploaded, so we can move them to the sandbox wiki ourselves if we so choose
<Scantron> whores
<TheRaven> I'm saving http://www.scp-wiki.net/hawkins-s-sandbox as an example to anyone who says we only get bad SCPs lately.
<@Light> haha
<@TroyL> You guys made sure this was all copied over to the sandbox site, right?
<@Light> Just moved m23's over
<@Light> …In retrospect, The Stray's doesn't seem to be showing up, but if s/he shows up after a 3 year hiatus I will take all responsibility for the missing thing
<TheRaven> Yeah, same with anything I deleted.
<TheRaven> Check the last edit date, most of 'em were from 2009.
<TheRaven> People still have no karma bars or just one, so it's safe to say they're not active.
<@TroyL> That doesn't mean we should just wholesale delete something, though. I mean, heck. We had one guy come back after a two year hiatus not that long ago.
<TheRaven> They were mostly empty for all intents and purposes.
<@TroyL> Mostly doesn't mean entirely.
<@Light> To be fair, many of them also suck
<@Light> But getting your stuff deleted and not having a backup also sucks, so we should try to avoid that
<@TroyL> That shouldn't matter. A lot of stuff on the sandbox sucks too.
<TheRaven> Forgive me if I don't see the point of moving stuff around for people who haven't been active for three years.
<@TroyL> Because it's their stuff and you're making the decision to delete it. Yes, you should move it, for the same reason you wanted the creepy pasta saved rather than outright deleted.
<@Light> Eh, just in case they come back
<TheRaven> Your logic has a gaping hole in it, Troy.
<@Light> Also, does anyone remember an SCP that makes you grow extra toes and finers and stuff?
<Scantron> .sea fingers toes
<CROM> Scantron: No SCPs found.
<Scantron> hm
<Scantron> .sea fingers
<CROM> Scantron: SCP-584 - Many Fingers, Many Toes - http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-584
<@Light> There's some pictures on this page and I'm not sure if they're linked to anything
<@Light> Dammit
<@Light> That's the one
<TheRaven> Woah goddamn how did I not see this before
<@TroyL> Still waiting for my gaping logic hole, Raven.
<TheRaven> We don't archive SCPs from these same people.
<@TroyL> These are works in progress. They are not complete yet.
<TheRaven> I don't see the difference. A good number of SCPs aren't "completed."
<@TroyL> Which is why these should go in the sandbox.
<TheRaven> I think you missed what I meant by that last statement.
<@TroyL> Ohh… I see. You mean to say that the "published" articles aren't completed.
<TheRaven> Yeah.
<TheRaven> 087 and 610 really jump to mind, what with linking nonexistent logs.
<@TroyL> That's a bit of a fallacy, isn't it? You're trying to change the discussion, which has nothing to do with completed articles, and everything to do with the sandboxes that you're deleting.
- Ecks (~ten.tsacmoc.dm.1dsh.F0CCBD3B-CRInys|skcE#ten.tsacmoc.dm.1dsh.F0CCBD3B-CRInys|skcE) Quit (Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~)
<@TroyL> That, as I've said, need to be backed up to the sandbox site if you're going to delete them.
<@TroyL> I'm got no problems with them being cleared out.
<@TroyL> I wanted to ages ago.
<@TroyL> Bright, Yoric, and Mann all argued that they needed to be backed up before that happened though, and Light agreed.
<TheRaven> You're arguing that sandboxes shouldn't be deleted because they're not finished, I'm saying that being unfinished wouldn't stand in the way of deleting anything else.
<@Light> I think the point is, they put them up at a time when it was normal for articles in sandboxes to be on the site without being subject to review
<@Light> Like, they expected their documents to be saved
<@TroyL> Raven. I just want them backed up, man. And you're arguing that because they're half done, you shouldn't have to.
<TheRaven> Well, I deleted a bunch without archiving. /shrug
I don't think any of us have a problems with the sandboxes being gone. They're obsolete on the site as it currently stands, and while they were fine when we had twenty or fewer members, the fact of the matter is that we now have 3000+ users with 50-100+ active, at any given time. To be perfectly frank, I was willing to let my problems with Raven sit unattended until this:
<TheRaven> Well, I deleted a bunch without archiving. /shrug
This is not the attitude an administrator needs to have about the writing of other people on a creative writing site. This is not to procedure that we all follow or the way that we're supposed to behave. After communicating with Raven in a PM, Light told me that he had deleted "four or five" without archiving. He had no knowledge of who these authors are. And while it may be easy to say that these people will never come back, every month I see someone out there who had completely forgotten about the site for the past year or two, only to come back suddenly and post again. I don't feel that their work, no matter how much we may devalue it, should be removed at the whim of one person.
Now, with all this being said, I'm not sure that any single one of these instances completely and utterly demonstrates that Raven is unfit for administrative duty on the site. But I do feel that, combined, all of them indicate someone that is unfit for the same duty.
I feel that I must move that Raven be stripped of administrative authority and rank and reduced to a normal user on the wiki, until such time as he has proven himself to have moved beyond these aforementioned problems, at which time I will solidly support his inclusion in Senior Staff.
Until this decision is made, Raven's administrative authority and position will be held in abeyance.
Thank you for reading this long, long post.
Regards,
Troy
